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Missiles vs. Turrets should be balanced in PVE as well as PVP.

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Jim Hazard	Posted - 2008.08.13 19:00:00 - [1] I wonder why ppl are allways complaining about Ravens dealing too much dps. Torp Raven with 3xBCU II and max Skills= 1000 DPS 1000 DPS is nothing the other races would not be able to reach if they fit enough damage mods. But most people prefer a Tank with a shitload of HP and high resistances. Now you are saying again that a raven can still put on a decent tank while dealing a lot of damage. Yes a raven can tank quite some damage if you use all your midslots for your tank, just it wont run an XL-Shield Booster for very long then. So you encounter my high dps + strong tank raven which might possibly kick your ass. Oh wait, i do not have a scrambler fitted. You simply warp away. Other Scenario: I have a scrambler fitted but no web. You will outrun me and still get away before you explode. Next Scenario: I have a scrambler, a cap injector, a web and an mwd fitted. Now i can keep you where you are but sadly I dont have any buffer tank no resistances and my shield booster wont change a lot now. So your 500dps 200k EHP battleship which is tackling / webbing maybe also neuting me is melting my overpowered Raven. So much for the Torp Raven. Cruise Missile Raven: DPS is Pathetic.. again with 3xBCU II it deals 440 dps from missiles (Hell yeah thats a lot for a ship with 3 damage mods). Even the Tempest ppl keep complaining about deals more damage on long range while it does not need to wait for 20 - 30 seconds until their shots finaly hit. As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles.
Jim Hazard	Posted - 2008.08.13 19:18:00 - [2] Edited by: Jim Hazard on 13/08/2008 19:33:55 Originally by: Kalintos Tyl ow fail jim is back http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drake2js3.jpg intresting ? AND TEMPEST IS BS AND DRAKE BC and where in my post did I say anything about drakes? I was just talking about the Raven, many people keep complaining about. Nothing else. edit: after taking a look at your little picture there i can not see what you are complaining about. With that setup the drake will not have a chance. Since the 2 heavy neuts will switch off the drakes invuls pretty fast which means the total EHP drop down to 64k and the defense drops down to 104 (which is not a constant value, but the value at the peak recharge rate only) while the tempest will have no problems to keep the cap up and will tank away 274 dps constantly -> Tempest wins. Also the Tempest will get some more dps when you use 2 Heavy drones 2 med drones + 1 small drone instead of 5 meds ;).
Jim Hazard	Posted - 2008.08.14 02:24:00 - [3] Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Jim Hazard As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles. IIRC All missile and support skills are about 1.5 times more SP then 1 type of turrets+ all support skills. And missile skills are generally 1 rank higher then respective turret skill. Since I love amarr I will use their skills to proof that you are wrong here. Large Energy Turrets = Rank 5 Medium Energy Turrets = Rank 3 Small Energy Turrets = Rank 1 Torpedos = Rank 4 Cruise Missiles = Rank 5 Heavy Missiles = Rank 3 Standard Missiles = Rank 1 Now Lets have a look at the skill reqs just to use the T2 Large Weapons. T2 Pulse Lasor: Motion Prediction Level 5 = 512k SP Gunnery Level 5 = 256k SP Medium Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 226k Small Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 135k Large Energy Turret 5 = 1.280K Medium Energy Turret 5 = 768k = 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses T2 Torps: Missile Launcher Operation 4 = 45k Torpedos 5 = 1.024k Standard Missiles 3 = 24k Heavy Missiles 3 = 8k = 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps
Jim Hazard	Posted - 2008.08.14 04:41:00 - [4] Edited by: Jim Hazard on 14/08/2008 04:44:15 Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Jim Hazard 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps That comparison is completely invalid. To be able to use all T2 Beams and all T2 Pulse lasers, with large specializations at IV, it would cost just under 5 mil SPs. For the equivalent in missiles, with all specializations at IV, it costs more than 6.25 mil SPs. It would do you well to not look at only one side of the equation. Well, yes if you really need to be able to use all kinds of missiles you will need quite some SPs in the end. I would not mind if the Total amount of SPs needed to use all the Weapons would be lowered for missiles. But look at it from this perspective: Not every1 wants to specialise to fly ships of every size. Lets say we got 2 Pilots here who only want to Specialise for Battleship sized Ships. Pilot A is a missile user. Pilot B wants to fly ships which use Turrets. Pilot A is rdy to use t2 BS weapons within 1 month. Pilot B needs 3 month to get there. -> unbalanced. edit: I do not really care a lot about that myself... i got all the gunnery skills for my ships maxed out. My point just is that it appears to be kind of unfair to be forced to train skills you are not planning to use in the near future while others can go straight for the Weapons they want.
Jim Hazard	Posted - 2008.08.14 11:49:00 - [5] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: murder one Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Jim Hazard Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Jim Hazard As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles. IIRC All missile and support skills are about 1.5 times more SP then 1 type of turrets+ all support skills. And missile skills are generally 1 rank higher then respective turret skill. Since I love amarr I will use their skills to proof that you are wrong here. Large Energy Turrets = Rank 5 Medium Energy Turrets = Rank 3 Small Energy Turrets = Rank 1 Torpedos = Rank 4 Cruise Missiles = Rank 5 Heavy Missiles = Rank 3 Standard Missiles = Rank 1 Now Lets have a look at the skill reqs just to use the T2 Large Weapons. T2 Pulse Lasor: Motion Prediction Level 5 = 512k SP Gunnery Level 5 = 256k SP Medium Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 226k Small Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 135k Large Energy Turret 5 = 1.280K Medium Energy Turret 5 = 768k = 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses T2 Torps: Missile Launcher Operation 4 = 45k Torpedos 5 = 1.024k Standard Missiles 3 = 24k Heavy Missiles 3 = 8k = 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps now fit 2 ships with the skills you stated (one for missile, like Raven and one for lasers, Geddon) and tell us the resulting DPS and target effectivnes. thanks ... Raven wins. Duh... fittings please ... and numbers ... Since i am to lazy now to calculate it exactly I am just gonna give you a description... At that point the Raven would win. Why? quite simple. Without the support skills trained the geddon will not deal enough damage to break through the Ravens tank, whereas the geddon relies on a passive tank which slowly will crumble while the raven keeps shooting it. Active tank instead on the geddon? No way... a single repper is not able to compensate that kind of damage and a dualrep tank does not run very long on a ship which is using laser turrets (not even with a cap injector). At an early stage Torps are a lot more useful than any other Battleship sized Weapon. Which results in a Low SP missile user being in an advantage over a Turret user with 3x as much SP for his weapons. At a later point the Geddon will win because the Raven will not be able to outtank the geddon anymore. The geddon will loose a lot of hitpoints, but a high damage buffer tanked BS will allways win vs an active tanked BS.

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